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2018 Election

Discussion in 'Politics/Religion' started by Darren Ingram, Oct 5, 2018.

  1. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    Sorry in advance for the triple post - I wanted to take issues individually. If that's a problem I will happily keep everything compressed to one post for the future.

    It's worth noting a few things about universal healthcare.

    One, United Nations members are working towards worldwide universal healthcare by 2030;
    Two, universal healthcare varies on who his covered, for what services, and how much it costs, from country to country;
    Three, the U.S. is the only major world power that does not have free, universal healthcare.

    Here's a world map of universal healthcare: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/Universal_Health_Care_july_2018.png

    I have no idea why you're calling it communism. There are five communist states in the world, and two of them do not have free universal healthcare. Universal healthcare is a human rights issue, not a communist vs. capitalist issue. Universal healthcare coverage IS A GOOD THING.

    Lastly - yeah, he supports sanctuary state law, and I just want to make one thing clear about my own beliefs since I've been active in this anyway. The illegal immigration issue is a non-starter for me. I was brought to this country very, very young and I do not believe I am entitled to anything because of that. I feel like it's cruel to pain that line between us and immigrants. I had no say in where I was born, and neither do people who want to make a life for themselves in America. I don't understand the xenophobic views and fear of the other that many people exhibit. Illegal immigrants in America aren't given social security or other benefits for their work, anyway.
     
  2. nj9703

    nj9703 Very Stable Genius

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    Universal healthcare vastly increases wait times for treatments. We’ve seen how the government has handled the VA. Do we really want that for all of us?

    Also, the capitalist drive behind American healthcare is what brings forward the cutting edge advancements that no other country can rival. America has led the advancement of treatments for years. I don’t recall many people going from the US to Canada or Britain for treatment, it’s always the other way around. $70 billion of biomedical research funding came from the private sector in 2012. Why? Because it’s profitable. Does this lead to flaws? Of course! But this also leads to tremendous amounts of cures and new treatments being discovered. The innovation will 100% be lost with the discarding of the profitability.

    The cost? Well, some might say it isn’t ethical to say that cost is a reason that we shouldn’t provide healthcare, but I think having a strong economy benefits the healthcare system, for the point made in my previous paragraph. The United States already spends more than any other country on healthcare per capita. A Bernie Sanders style form of universal healthcare would add an additional $32.6 trillion to the total amount that is already spent by the government, over 10 years. The tax increases to pay for this would be massive. So massive that in the end, are we really getting anything out of cheaper or free healthcare? All of our paychecks would be smaller even though a large portion of us are perfectly healthy and won’t even see much of a benefit from a this. Charles Blahous, author of the Mercatus Study on Medicare for all, states that “A doubling of all currently projected federal individual and corporate income tax collections would be insufficient to finance the added federal costs of the plan.” For an example, in 2010, 46% of Ontario’s budget went towards healthcare. By 2030, that number is expected to be 80%. Meaning the province of Ontario will practically have no funds to maintain infrastructure or basically any other responsibility they have, other than healthcare.

    Government mandated healthcare puts the decisions about what I am treated for in the hands of government bureaucrats. That’s exactly how the NHS works. Due to their resources they decide who qualifies for everything, all the way to cancer treatments. They restrict hip and knee replacements like there’s no tomorrow, and diabetic medications as well. As a type I diabetic, there’s no way in hell I want the government trying to tell me I can’t have access to my medication.


    And just take a look at this New York Times article on the state of the NHS. 12 hour wait times in the ER.




    None of this is to say that the American health care system does not have its flaws. It is tremendously flawed. But why not work to fix its flaws rather than starting new with a system that will stagnate innovation, massively hike taxes, and restrict our choices in what treatments and medications we receive.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
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  3. MrDude68

    MrDude68 Occasional Backwards Driver

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    I did click on the article and read it. I don't normally do that with NYT, but decided this was important. Gotta say though, I really don't see anything but speculation and accusations there. It just ties up Pence to conversion therapy because that would seem to fall in line with his agenda. You also misjudge Pence's character by claiming he "doesn't like those who belong to the LGBT community."

    Conservative Christians are one of the most misunderstood and demonized Republican voting groups, and here's why...

    The Bible is misread and misconstrued in a lot of ways by a lot of different people, but I will say this: It is crystal clear on what marriage is, and that's between one man and one woman. That's inarguable. The actual conflict on the marriage issue (to my understanding) arises because "married" is a status with legal implications in the United States, and so if there are certain groups of people that are excluded from those implications, then it certainly raises a concern that needs to be dealt with. Simply redefining marriage so that it can be between any two people is the easiest way to deal with that issue. But, in the Christian view, that's a defilement of what God defined marriage to be in the Bible. Thus, fundamentally, someone who adheres to Biblical teaching cannot conscionably support marriage equality for homosexuals. They can, however, be in full support of other legal solutions to the issue (civil unions, etc). This is what many Democrats don't seem to want to believe. Or maybe they just believe there are no other solutions besides legalized gay marriage... I don't know.

    Regardless of the case, here's my main point: Opposing gay marriage and believing homosexuality is a sin do not mean Christians hate gays. Disclaimer: some do (a small minority). But most Christians who disagree with homosexuality and gay marriage really do have all the love in the world for the LGBT community, it's just hard to express in politics. The concern for Christians is not that they want gays to be subject to inequality, disrespect, and contempt in society, it's the normalization of homosexuality (again, a sin according to the Bible). I understand that to non-religious people, living by an "archaic" book just seems dumb. But these are not extreme views, and Mike Pence is not a gay-hater. They're just not your views of morality.
     
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  4. BrendonH12

    BrendonH12 Lover of Jesus! #CarolinaStrong #Pray4theSouth

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    Woah, this is a lot! I won’t take the time to go over everything, as I think @MrDude68 did an excellent job at trying to explain the Christian view to those who may have no idea what it’s all about. Anyway, some of the stuff brought up here is irrelevant, such as dietary laws that were put in place by God for His people, Israel, under the Old Covenant, but I’ll explain anyway. These dietary restrictions were lifted under the New Covenant as one can read in Acts 10:9-16 if he so desires. That is why you don’t see Christians refusing to eat lobster.

    Anyway, Christians do not hate gay people. Nor do we hate Muslims, drunks, smokers, or doers of a whole list of other things one could name. However, we do believe these things are wrong and are in opposition to God’s Word. But that certainly does not mean that we hate these people! In fact, it’s the exact opposite - we love and pray for these people all the time. As @MrDude68 said, there may be some who hate these kinds of people (I don’t know; I personally have never come in contact with those of this stripe), but that surely doesn’t mean that all Christians do. That would be like saying that because a few African-Americans are racist, all of them are.

    I have to disagree with you, J.J. The left does hate Pence because he is a Christian who stands up for his Christian values. Sure, this may not be the only reason, but it’s definitely one of them. As well, Pence does not hate prople of the LGBT community, but because of his Christian faith and belief in God’s Word, he cannot be support of such. One last thing I’d like to add is that I DO NOT care at all what New York City likes and doesn’t like in the slightest. I only care about what is right in God’s eyes.

    Sorry for the Bible lesson, everyone. :)
     
  5. EarnhardtFan

    EarnhardtFan Residential Twitch Addict

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    My brain trying to understand the logic:
    [​IMG]
    I think I get it though, just because you think it’s wrong doesn’t mean you hate it.

    To me though that raises the question of why does it matter? Like I get it, a sin is a wrongdoing and therefore bad. But to my recollection isn’t Jesus supposed to forgive sins once we die and isn’t god supposed to love all of his children no matter what? It seems pretty trivial to me to think something that really only effects the person it applies to is wrong, especially when it doesn’t really matter in the end. Unless I’m missing something or misremembering.

    Also, what about Christians who are a part of the LGBT community? My best friend is both.

    EDIT: Sorry for the originally HUGE image, I posted that from my iPad and mobile view doesn't convey exactly how big the image was very well.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
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  6. sadlerfan21

    sadlerfan21 Well-Known Member

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    Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet. Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich. -Napolean Bonaparte

    The fact that christians in power support an actual holy war, really makes me wonder about this morality argument they oh so love to bring up. Complaining about the persecution they face as a group yet so eager to take away the freedoms from others be it religious, racial, or economic. Defending priests that molest and rape kids. Meddling in political elections helping politicians that have no regard for others. The list goes on. Everyone asks 'What would Jesus do/say?' I ask the same. What would Jesus say about the way his institution and name are being used in the present day? Based on those love and support others teachings, I would say he would be disappointed. If you have to use heaven as some endgame as reason to be nice as some reward, you aren't a good person to begin with. Doing some nice out of the good of your heart does, not some ice cream after the game.

    This is just the cherry on top. The same group of christians that says morality is under attack supporting an economic system that greatly favors those who are born or wed into wealthy families and discriminates those less well off. If this system were left to it's own devices, racism and religious persecution. All defending it because it protects the value of fake real life points just so we can keep score. Manipulating life and the quality of it for personal gain and profit. All to protect our fake money.
     
    EarnhardtFan likes this.
  7. Darren Ingram

    Darren Ingram Well-Known Member

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    I’m not going to even bother trying to the previous few posts really, I don’t see that argument going anywhere productive, but this is the one part that I will.


    It seems like in this thread, it is being made to seem like being a Democrat and being a Christian are mutually exclusive events. This is not the case.

    As it’s been obvious throughout this thread, I do lean left politically, but I am a Christian and have gone to church and believed in the Gospel for most of my life.

    That’s great. But, not everyone in this country is a Christian. We have religious freedom in this country. Everyone should not be subject to rules, laws, and beliefs based on one religion. That is unjust to others.
     
  8. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    Universal healthcare is a way to describe different healthcare programs, and is it not monolithic entity. Universal healthcare is, as stated, very diverse in execution. Universal healthcare purely means that healthcare will be provided to everybody.

    I tried fact-checking this claim, and this claim seems to mostly be an issue in Canada. An analysis of other countries does not mention this problem. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3633404/

    There's nothing non-capitalist about universal healthcare by itself - both public and private companies do research in multiple countries, and the government can have limited involvement in universal healthcare. Denmark has pretty good healthcare and the government plays a fairly limited role in it. I'll repeat - the only tenet of universal healthcare is that everybody should be treated. That does not fall anywhere on the political spectrum.

    You can read more about Danish healthcare here, where they spend a little above average and their system is wonderful: https://international.commonwealthfund.org/countries/denmark/

    This is not a "universal healthcare problem," as those links read. A huge reason that United States healthcare is so expensive is because a lot of the services are overcharged. This article is a quality read on that: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/03/...ngle-stitch-tops-500.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

    "Then the bills arrived. Ms. Singh’s three stitches cost $2,229.11. Orla’s forehead was sealed with a dab of skin glue for $1,696. “When I first saw the charge, I said, ‘What could possibly have cost that much?’ ” recalled Ms. Singh. “They billed for everything, every pill.”"

    So why is this shit so expensive in the first place? That's $743 per stitch! The issue here is that hospitals are not adequately regulated when it comes to pricing and those things are not THAT expensive. This article, among other things, cites $140 per Tylenol pill. Private healthcare institutions are essentially entitled to name their charge, and can make that price ludicrous: https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/31/a-new-health-care-approach-dont-hide-the-price/

    Lastly, hospital pricing varies widely from hospital to hospital for that reason: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/08/business/hospital-billing-varies-wildly-us-data-shows.html.

    Again, the central tenet of universal healthcare is that no matter what, you get treated as long as you're a citizen or permanent resident. Non-universal healthcare means that plenty of people wouldn't get treated for those kinds of things at all no matter how much they needed them, or how much it was recommended by a doctor. There are other people with type 1 diabetes who can't get any sort of treatment because they can't afford it.

    There is a way to execute universal healthcare to fit the needs of everybody, including you. Some countries haven't done that well, but plenty of other countries have. The WHO ranks the U.S. system in 37th, the highest non-universal country on the list: http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper30.pdf

    For the record, that's still behind Canada. #1 is France, which has universal healthcare, as do numbers 2-36.

    Bottom line: Do you believe everybody should be treated? Because I do. That's what universal healthcare is.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
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  9. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    I don't believe Christians hate gay people or other marginalized groups, and maybe that's the wrong way to say it. Plenty of the religious right are opposed to these groups, for sure. You can be religious without being opposed to those groups because you can be a Christian without deciding that other people have to be Christian. That shouldn't be a matter of public policy.

    I'm irreligious, but I was raised Jewish and had a bar mitzvah. Kosher law prevents meat and dairy from being eaten together, but I had a lot of the Taco Bell that was across the street from my synagogue. I would never advocate for any Jewish law to be a part of public policy, just like you shouldn't advocate for any Christian law to be a part of public policy. Advocating for such is a direct threat to marginalized groups, as many of those groups do not follow those laws.

    If you want to follow God's word, if you don't want to get married to a man, that's fine! But don't try to force other people to follow those rules. I don't want to get married to a man, so I'm just not going to, but I'll happily fight for the right of anybody else to do so.

    I was never asking you to give a damn what New York City thinks, but 59% of New York City's population are Christian. We're blue, and we largely dislike Pence. It's not up to you to "disagree" with me. That is not an opinion that I hold. "Standing up for his values" is fine, but he's overseeing a whole country as vice president. "Standing up for your values" does not mean making other people follow those values. In that article shared earlier (http://time.com/4406337/mike-pence-gay-rights-lgbt-religious-freedom/), Pence said and did numerous anti-LGBT things, such as saying that allowing gay people to get married "will lead to societal collapse." He is objectively anti-LGBT, no matter what your opinion is.

    Also, in response to what you said earlier - I don't know where you get your news, but Mike Pence is widely disliked by half of people about as much as any other political figure is.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2018
  10. MattyO

    MattyO Well-Known Member Admin

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    Honest question, because I don't know what to do. Do I let this thread continue because it's gone completely off the rails from the topic at hand and the Election is over? Or keep it going?

    I am of the mindset as long as you guys stay civil and debate like normal fucking people (which I think you've done a tremendous job of doing, well done!) the thread can stay open.
     
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  11. Darren Ingram

    Darren Ingram Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to see it stay open. Even though we don't all agree, I think conversation is healthy, as long as no one turns to attacking or bashing people for no reason.

    I've thoroughly enjoyed this thread.
     
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  12. EarnhardtFan

    EarnhardtFan Residential Twitch Addict

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    While I agree we've gotten off topic, I think it's a good debate. I may not 100% understand some of the logic being used and we may not all agree, but it hasn't devolved to shit-flinging and personal attacks.
     
  13. RacerXero84

    RacerXero84 Obnoxious old fart

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    Let it ride. Provided we can continue to be civil and not slinging labels and address politicians/people as named and not "Egotistical racist bigoted narcissist" etc etc etc.

    So far, with the exception of one individual, I think we have all done a very impressive job keeping it civil and orderly. This is what has been missing in politics as of late: civil, intelligent discourse.

    To be completely honest, while I don't see eye to eye with many of the people in this thread on everything, for the most part, it has actually been a genuine pleasure having a reasonable conversation on the topic of politics.

    I'd go as far as to call this the "Your Random Though on Politics Thread" lol
     
  14. MrDude68

    MrDude68 Occasional Backwards Driver

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    I'm not exactly sure what you're asking... Do you have a specific question about people like your friend? I would be happy to address it.
    Now that is extremism, if true. No one would touch that with a ten foot pole.
    You say there's religious freedom in this country, so I guess it's no concern to you then that Christians can get in legal trouble now for not supporting things they think are morally wrong. After all, they're the radical idiots, right? What's the big deal if idiots don't get what they want? Plus, isn't religious freedom just a thinly veiled excuse to be bigoted anyway? I know how this game works. A good resolution doesn't create another problem in its wake, like the marriage ruling has, and I don't believe it has to be a win-or-lose issue for either side.

    Final thought: I wish the mainstream media (on both sides) would quit it with all the hate-mongering that's causing the worst partisan division I've seen in my life. That needs to end ASAP.
     
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  15. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    Religious freedom is a tricky issue to wade through because religious freedom also means freedom from other religion. If I was a lawmaker and tried to outlaw non-Kosher food, that would be infringing on your rights, no? If a lawmaker tried to impose sharia law that would also be infringing on your rights, just like a lawmaker who tries to impose law based off of scripture.
     
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  16. Junebugrocks88

    Junebugrocks88 The Wanderer of Sim Racing

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    While I'm still young and just voted in my first midterm election, there are a lot of issues and topics that I'm honestly just not completely informed on. This thread has helped me understand some things (and to an extent, what sources are good to read or not) that I didn't quite get before, and it's refreshing to see healthy debate like this after hellacious sessions of scrolling through Facebook. While I may not have the knowledge or vocabulary to comment on this thread very often, I really enjoy reading through it and seeing what different opinions there are on certain topics. Long story short, I'd love to see this thread stay open.
     
  17. MattyO

    MattyO Well-Known Member Admin

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    How do we pay for it? I'm all for everyone having access to some sort of healthcare. But my paycheck is already being raped with taxes. Then I've got to take out more for my 401k, and retirement funds. I'm already paying for Sheila in the trailerpark or shaniqua in the hood with her 3 kids and she's wanting #4 and #5 because she knows that more kids equals more money. I'm tired of paying for shit like that. So now you want me to pay for their healthcare too? You better come up with something good.

    This mentality of getting free shit without working for it doesn't cut the mustard with this guy. Big surprise right? I already get on people in this community for all the free shit they get and complain about it,lol. I busted my ass to get where I'm at. I put in a honest days work for an honest days pay. And your trying to sell to me that the people who haven't done this get to enjoy the same benefits as me without the struggles and sacrifice's I've made to make my life better? Hell..................fucking................no. Nope, no, nodda, no sir, nein, insert any translation of no here,lol.
     
  18. BrendonH12

    BrendonH12 Lover of Jesus! #CarolinaStrong #Pray4theSouth

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    WARNING: This is a LONG post, but I encourage you all to read it...
    First off, I'd like to say that I sense that you are genuinely concerned about these subjects, and for that I'd like to commend you. O.K. I'd like to give a little information as to why homosexuality is such a sin - in fact, one of the only sins called an abomination in the Bible. It is such because it began as an attempt by Satan to keep Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world, from being born. As would be obvious, no children can be born to a homosexual couple, so Satan thought that if he could get man to cohabitate with man and woman with woman he could stop God's plan from coming to pass. As well, in the beginning, God created one male and one female. As my pastor likes to put it, "He created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." This was the way that God intended for it to be.
    Now, your question about Jesus forgiving sins and God's love for humanity... Yes, God has a never-ceasing love for all of humanity. He proved this great love by sending His one and only Son to die on the cross for all of humanity's sin - past, present, and future. However, that sin can only be forgiven on this side of the grave. To answer your question, Jesus does not forgive sins after we die. Those that accept what Jesus has done for them here on earth are forgiven of their sins, while sadly, those who do not die lost and will ultimately live in hell forever and ever.
    As far as Christians being involved in the LGBT community, well, that in reality cannot happen. A TRUE born again Christian believer cannot be involved in something that God calls a sin. I hope I've been able to clear up some things from a Christian's point of view.

    If one truly understands the definition of a true, Bible-believing Christian, it will be overly obvious that Matt Shea and anyone else who would advocate such ludicrosities is not a Christian at all. This is the thing you have to understand, just because someone claims to be a Christian does not mean they are. Jesus said, "You shall know them by their fruits (Mat. 7:16)." As far as Catholic priests go, I do not defend anything to do with the Catholic so-called "church." Catholics are not the same as Christians because the definition of a Christian is someone who follows and worships God alone. However, Catholics worship Mary and many other saints. So, let's leave Catholics out of this.
    What would Jesus say about His church today? I agree with you to a degree that He would disappointed with His Church. He would say that Christians should not be afraid to speak out on what they know is right. He would say that Christians need to stop being quiet and ashamed of their faith and should go and share His Gospel with the whole world. That's what Jesus is all about - saving the lost, no matter what kind or how much sin they may be involved in. Yes, Jesus taught us to love others, but that very same Jesus got angry and threw some stuff in His own temple because of wrongdoing that was going on in there (John 2:13-16).
    Now, I don't really know what you're talking about as it regards Heaven. Heaven is a place reserved for those who accept what Christ did for them on the cross and do their best to live for Him all their life. Heaven is not a place where people go for doing good works. You have to understand, God knows the heart of every man, and He would certainly not let anyone into Heaven that did not have a relationship with Him and was just doing a few food works here and there in order to reach Heaven.
    Hope I've helped you out some! :)
    It has been the great privilege of countless Americans down through the ages to stand up for what they believe is right. I will never back down from what I believe and will never stop fighting for what I believe is right. I also believe that everybody else has that right to fight for what they believe in. That's what makes America so great! The day that I am told that I can no longer speak my beliefs because it will offend somebody is the day that this country loses everything that it was founded upon. I realize that this has already happened to a degree, but whatever...
    As well, I am not trying to force my beliefs on anyone. I am simply sharing mine and countless other Christ-followers. If someone disagrees with me, fine; that doesn't mean that I was wrong in sharing my beliefs and should never do it again.
    As far as what Pence has said, it has been stated that in almost every empire that was so great and eventually fell and is no more today did so in part to allowing and condoning homosexuality. Now, I'm not saying that that is the only reason, but definitely a part of it. I'm sure there were financial factors, etc. I agree that he is anti-gay marriage. He is so because it goes against God's Word. However, he as all true Christians, is not anti-homosexual. In other words, he does not hate gays. I'll conclude with a popular phrase for Christians to live by: "Hate the sin, but love the sinner."

    Now, I hope that nothing I've said will be construed as hate or anything of that nature. I am simply explaining my beliefs to people who have posed questions regarding those beliefs. Questions I hope I have answered satisfactorily. I realize that I am in the minority here as it regards my beliefs, and I don't expect anyone to change theirs because I've posted mine. However, if someone wants to further talk about the subject of Christianity, I'm open to the discussion.

    I also want to say regarding this thread that I have loved the conversation that has gone within it. The people here have been calm, civilized, and well-behaved. I think it's a great idea to keep it open and continue the discussion.

    God bless.
     
  19. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    Regulate hospitals/medicine better to keep prices down, since a lot of this stuff is not that expensive. A hospital stay, and other medical procedures/imaging, are absurdly more expensive in the United States compared to other countries. This paints a pretty thorough picture:

    "For example, a hospital stay costs an average of $1,825 in Spain, $5,004 in Germany and an average of $15,734 in the U.S. An appendectomy ranges from an average of $1,030 in Argentina, to $5,509 in Chile, to an average of $13,003 in the U.S. The survey also found that the cost of a widely prescribed drug like Nexium can range from $69 in Switzerland to $193, the average cost in the U.S."

    https://www.healthnewsreview.org/2012/03/comparing-health-care-costs-in-us-and-8-other-countries/

    This is from 2012. Things aren't better. Cheaper services would mean cheaper healthcare for everybody.
     
  20. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    I agree, believing and fighting a belief is fine. However, making that specific belief a matter of public policy with your vote is a problem for groups who aspire to equality. Believing something is wrong - and then wanting everybody else to follow those sames rules, even if deviation from those rules has no impact on your well-being - is oppressive. If a Jewish man wanted to stop you from going to church in violation of Jewish law that would be wrong, no? Jewish people are not allowed to enter buildings that contain idols, but why should they stop you?

    Do you have any evidence to back up this claim?

    I think these are excellent words to live by, not just for Christians but in general. Thanks for sharing them.
     
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