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Government Shutdown

Discussion in 'Politics/Religion' started by Spike, Jan 11, 2019.

  1. MrDude68

    MrDude68 Occasional Backwards Driver

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    I find it hilarious you bring this up considering the circumstances by which Obama was able to pass that trash heap of a bill. That was definitely not a compromise between both parties lol
     
    ThatOneShredder and RacerXero84 like this.
  2. RacerXero84

    RacerXero84 Obnoxious old fart

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    Got to pass it to find out what's in it - Nancy Pelosi

    The single most shady statement made by a politician in modern times.... well.... a close second to "If you like your doctor/plan you can keep it" - Barack Hussain Obama

    Also.... shutdown over till Feb 15th, this paves the way for federal employees to collect their pay and back pay. I still don't see Pelosi and Schumer ponying up for the wall, so national emergency it is.
     
    Ceafus 88 and ThatOneShredder like this.
  3. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    Questions for those on here who support funding for the wall.

    What evidence do you have that a 55 foot tall(?) barrier would be effective in reducing illegal immigration, and flow of drugs to the United States? Illegal border crossings have been on the decline for about 20 years. A wall is projected to have little impact on that. It's not as simple a solution because we live in a world with rope, ladders, airplanes, helicopters, etc.

    Also, what do you think these people coming to the United States are trying to do?

    A lot of these people are fleeing violence, wanting to be reunited with family, or looking for a better life. They don't come here to commit crimes. A wall wouldn't deter people fleeing violence because the wall is still a safer option for them. There may be little difference between you and them except for birthplace, and why should we doom someone to something because of circumstances out of their control?

    There isn't a line to get in to come here, even though a lot of people seem to think that. I have lived in the United States my entire life and my immigration process was a lot of verification, a lot of interviews, and finally a ceremony for something that should have been a mere formality. It's harder for people who grew up somewhere else, unable to get out, where staying there or leaving could be a life and death situation. And sure, you could say, "tough shit" but it's a human life, and that person is more than likely going to exhaust all of their options for better opportunity.

    If I'm going to boil my points down simply, they'd be the following:

    1. There is not a national emergency - illegal border crossings have been trending downwards for the last couple of decades. Declaring a national emergency is both unjust and an ineffective solution to a complex problem. How would you feel if a Democratic president declared a national emergency to raise taxes?
    2. Because illegal border crossings been trending down, a wall would be pointless.
    3. Due to circumstances of immigration to the U.S., a wall would be ineffective.
    4. Country of origin shouldn't be a deciding factor in having a better life; a wall would be unsympathetic.
    5. Legal immigration isn't simply "getting in line," and ability to immigrate legally to the U.S. can be denied, leaving people in terrible situations with no other option except to come to the U.S. and work.
    6. Undocumented immigrants are contributors to our economy and are not eligible for public benefits that people think they come here to get, and taxes that we pay are not usually spent on them.
     
  4. Darren Ingram

    Darren Ingram Moderator Moderator

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    I keep seeing this, and one of my friends brought this up earlier today actually.

    If this was actually a national emergency, shouldn't the President act swiftly and quickly enact action to solve said emergency? At this point, we have waited 35 days (plus two years of Republican majority in both chambers, but I digress). Assuming we let this deal run out, February 15th makes it, what, around 55 days? If we truly had an emergency, shouldn't he have started this process nearly two months ago at that point? Who waits two months to try to solve an emergency?
     
    EarnhardtFan likes this.
  5. nj9703

    nj9703 Very Stable Genius

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    Congress has. But they’ve waited much longer than two months, they’ve waited ages. As everyone from both sides has said this isn’t some black and white issue, so it can’t be compared to a black and white emergency, like a hurricane or a mass sickness.
     
    RacerXero84 likes this.
  6. sadlerfan21

    sadlerfan21 Well-Known Member

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    You know what we need to do? Build a wall between the black and the white. That way the problem is solved.

    I love this national emergency talk. People act like others immigrating into the country is comparable to a hurricane that levels cities and kills thousands. If anything, shouldn't this country try to make itself better to make it more appealing to coming here? Set an example and such, rather than keeping others out. My city alone (99% white, votes exclusively Republican) is rampant with meth abuse and domestic violence. A horribly poor area with everyone and their brother seeming to be convicted felons. I would say issues like that need fixed more so than keeping tanned-skin people out.
     
  7. MrDude68

    MrDude68 Occasional Backwards Driver

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    I understand that people want to be sympathetic and compassionate, but this point is just illogical. We're talking idealism at its finest. People are born where they're born, and one country cannot take in all the world's impoverished. It would be compassion to the point of oblivion.
     
    RacerXero84 and nj9703 like this.
  8. MrDude68

    MrDude68 Occasional Backwards Driver

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    I see you're with the masses CNN and the others have been drumming up to oppose this "racism." Which is not at all what it is, by the way. It literally has nothing to do with brown people vs white, and the only people I ever see bringing race into the fold are Democrats. Seriously, there aren't actually that many racist people out there. That's just the media doing their thing. Once again those are empty accusations.
     
  9. sadlerfan21

    sadlerfan21 Well-Known Member

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    Funny coming from the guy saying others are too idealist while thinking a giant wall is going to stop people. The crazy thing, is I have yet to see a Hispanic doing drugs or committing crimes that we are saying that needs to be stopped. Call it confirmation bias, but I see that as perfect argument as that seems to be the common tactic anyway. Something about sand being bad for your ears or something like that.
     
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  10. MrDude68

    MrDude68 Occasional Backwards Driver

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    Except I never said a wall would be the be-all and end-all, did I?
     
    RacerXero84 likes this.
  11. 4WideRacing

    4WideRacing Well-Known Member

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    And you live in Pennsylvania... a LONG way away from the southern border ;)
     
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  12. Darren Ingram

    Darren Ingram Moderator Moderator

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    I live in South Texas, I can go to Mexico and back as a day trip. A majority of people that I know that are from the area and live in the area in fact do not want a wall. Anecdotal evidence I know, but if you're going to call out his opinion about a border wall, we should call you out to. You live in Ohio according to your profile, what makes your opinion more valid than his?
     
    Spike likes this.
  13. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    This point of mine is informed by the points that came before it.

    A wall would be an ineffective way to solve a problem that is already becoming less of a problem without a wall. Knowing this and building it would just be a symbol of exclusion, one insulting to immigrants.

    Trump said this today. I'm going to link the quote to a video.

    “They save good people from attempting a very dangerous journey from other countries - thousands of miles - because they have a glimmer of hope of coming through. With a wall, they don’t have that hope.”

    Not only does that sound callous and cruel, it just wouldn't be true. To get to the United States from say, Honduras, somebody would have to do the following:

    - Uproot their entire life
    - Walk across Honduras
    - Illegally cross the border into Guatemala
    - Walk across Guatemala
    - Illegally cross the border into Mexico
    - Walk across Mexico
    - Get over the wall, which can probably be done with a tall ladder/set of ladders and a rope.

    This journey is the only option for some people, so they're going to try and do it no matter what.

    The United States isn't planning to take in the world's impoverished, but not all of the world's impoverished are trying to come to the United States. If that were true, plenty of countries wouldn't have any population. What I'm saying wasn't ideal at all - my ideal world would be where every country can adequately feed and shelter its people, and there would be no poverty.

    Back onto my other point though - why do you think a wall would work? Historically, the vast majority of border walls have been taken down (Berlin) or ignored/repurposed (Great Wall of China, many other landmarks). A wall wouldn't stop any sort of aircraft, any it wouldn't stop any people who came on a visa and then stayed (16% of undocumented Mexican immigrants, 91% of all other undocumented immigrants).

    People have already found a way around the 2006 fencing, which is about a third to half the height of the proposed wall. A life-or-death situation means that people will find a way.
     
    EarnhardtFan likes this.
  14. 4WideRacing

    4WideRacing Well-Known Member

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    My opinion? Tell me, what is my opinion?! :D
     
  15. MrDude68

    MrDude68 Occasional Backwards Driver

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    Hey, the Berlin Wall worked great before Europe's political atmosphere changed with the fall of communism.

    I'm not sure what you're saying here is even factually accurate though... Because actually, dozens of new border walls have gone up around the world for various reasons over the past 20 years. They are more common now than ever before. Just because they don't stop everyone doesn't mean they have no noticeable effect. It seems self-evident that it would at least slow down the flow of immigrants through the border, which would increase the effectiveness of border patrols.
     
  16. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    Millions of people still cross borders, which makes the walls relatively ineffective. Many of these people cross borders through the air. Border walls don't really really unless they're short and heavily guarded. Even these just shift the flow into other points of entry. Hell, borders built on the U.S.-Mexico border have resulted in 150+ tunnels built on that border. They don't really prevent illegal immigration, they just divert it.
     
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  17. Darren Ingram

    Darren Ingram Moderator Moderator

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    Also, I meant to make this point earlier, but anyone arguing that the Democrats are against border security must be forgetting the bill in 2013, spearheaded by Chuck Schumer, which doubled the amount of border patrol agents, would build 700 miles of wall, and would allocate about 45 billion dollars in border security spending, among other things. It passed the Senate 68-32. Why didn't it become law? The Republican controlled House refused to bring it to a vote.
     
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  18. RacerXero84

    RacerXero84 Obnoxious old fart

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    What else was in that bill?

    Also, they are. Currently. Many of them are still calling for the defunding of ICE. The Dems position on border security has drastically altered in the last couple of years... a point I made earlier.
     
    MrDude68 likes this.
  19. Spike

    Spike Well-Known Member

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    Well it seems we avoided another Government Shutdown but now Trump opened pandora's box by calling the Border Fence issue a National Emergency. So now we have a President that's just going to use National Emergency's when he doesn't get his way with Congress and Senate.
     
  20. Darren Ingram

    Darren Ingram Moderator Moderator

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    EarnhardtFan and joeykraus19 like this.

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