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Jimmie's got it in the bag

Discussion in 'NASCAR Discussion' started by jaqua99, Oct 20, 2010.

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  1. David24

    David24 Paint Crew Paint Crew

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    Holy crap how long did that take you????? Doesn't matter at all though. Because it's 2010 and not 2003 as much as you (and a lot more people) want it to be.

    Besides every single fact (except the Chase facts) you posted are worthless.
    1: Because that system wasn't used
    2: If the old system was used 2004-present teams/drivers/owners would have a totally different outlook on things. They would have used different strategies.

    So as of now, we have AT LEAST three drivers going for the Cup this year. But under the "Classic" system Harvick would be running away with the Cup right now (assuming every race had the same outcome) almost making the rest of the season utterly pointless.

    Obviously the rules won't change for seeding. And no I don't like how drivers are reset after the 26th race. But I'd rather see a battle until the last race down to the last lap. And I do realize it would be closer under the "Classic" system for some years using the Chase, but would every race have had the same outcome? No.
     
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  2. Clutch

    Clutch Well-Known Member

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    Thing is, the drivers know the name of the game. They know what has to be done to win this championship, and that's that.

    People going "OH NOES, JOE SOAP SHOULDA WON IT THAT YEAR" are making an invalid arguement. Drivers and teams race according to the rules presented to them. Not according to the rules they used to have so they can go "Oh look, I should've won it". If they are going to win a Sprint Cup championship, they are going to have to do it via the chase. End of story.

    EDIT: David beat me to a few points.
     
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  3. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    I would love to see a battle down to the last lap. But NASCAR would get more viewers if there were a different group of drivers each time.
     
  4. MattyO

    MattyO Well-Known Member Admin

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    Impressive stats.

    However there is a couple flaws with just showing stats of the regular cup points and the chase points and who should win a championship or not.

    The 48 team experiments and tests their race cars until the chase starts. Their whole system is all about gearing up for the chase and then seeing who can beat them in a 10 or 12 race shootout.

    So far, no other team has been able to do that. They are playing with the cards NASCAR has dealt them, and they are dominating because of it.

    If the old points rules were in place, it's a guarantee that the 48 team would step it up when they needed to during the course of the whole year instead of balls to the wall in just the chase.

    It's not NASCAR'S or the 48 teams fault because they know when to turn up the heat and whip everyone's butts in the chase. The other teams need to step it up in the chase to do what the 48 team is doing. It's not the points system's fault, everyone plays under the same rules and points system. The 12th place car starting the chase has just as good of a shot as 1st place car at winning it all at the end of the year. All they have to do is whip them all for 12 races. All 12 teams have a legit shot at it. What's the problem with that?

    I just don't see how comparing the old points system to the chase system is relevant. Every single team would be preparing their season and cars differently depending on what points system they would be racing under.

    What JJ and Chad have reminds me so much of what Jeff and Ray had when they were just killing the competition in the late 90's and early 2000's.
     
  5. MattyO

    MattyO Well-Known Member Admin

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    This
     
  6. Markfan

    Markfan Sim Racing Designosaur

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    About 30-40 minutes. It wasn't that hard to be honest, thanks to racing-reference.info and to a degree Jayski. I did have to create the lists though, which took the most of that time.

    I have a hard time believing he'd have beaten Jeff Gordon in 2007 (and definitely this year too) even if he had stepped up, the #24 was just too good that year (like I said, Jeff broke records that year, plus the fact that Jimmie had 10 wins that season is a good indication he wasn't holding back, even with the deficit he would have had without the chase), and it's not as if Jimmie hasn't been going for wins/points in the main season recently either, for example, this year only one of his six wins came in the chase. However, the fact that at least half of the chase tracks count to his best doesn't help the matter, as the only tracks in the chase that are not favorable to him are Kansas, Texas, Talladega, Homestead. Whereas his five BEST tracks, Charlotte, Phoenix, Martinsville, California, and Dover are ALL in the chase. In comparison, four of his worst five tracks, Sears Point, Watkins Glen, Chicagoland, and Michigan are absent (the only one in the chase is Homestead). Along with other notable weak spots for him such as Daytona, Bristol, Darlington, and to a degree Atlanta and Richmond, that are not present either.

    I'm definitely not saying NASCAR is catering to him (except maybe that incident during the 2nd '09 Dover race inspection or '10 Sonoma), but it's definitely an imbalance that works perfectly in his favor, as the absence of the majority of his worst tracks severely buffers his championship viability, whereas he'd be "on par" with most of the top drivers (rather than what is seen during the 10-race countdown).
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2010
  7. PepsiRacer4

    PepsiRacer4 The One and Only

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    So what. The Lakers, Yankees, and Colts have dominated in recent years like Johnson. These teams have figured out what it takes to win titles. Plain and simple. Same goes for hockey, Detroit and Pittsburgh have been in the Stanley Cup numerous years in a row. It's life, move on and in the future someone new will emerge and will dominate like Johnson has.
     
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  8. Markfan

    Markfan Sim Racing Designosaur

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    It's not the same, there is a difference between the playoffs and the chase. In the playoffs, both teams get to play in their "best" arena [their hometown], so it's balanced and even. In NASCAR, they obviously can't let the chasers "pick" a track to use [especially after the increase from ten drivers], as it would cause chaos for sponsors, ticket vendors, etc, so since that's not possible, the chase will always benefit some drivers and hinder others. Jimmie just happens to be one of the drivers that is extremely benefited by the chase, and Jeff Gordon is one that is badly hindered. I'm almost positive that if the Chase looked like this:

    -Chicagoland
    -Watkins Glen
    -Texas
    -Sears Point
    -Daytona
    -Richmond
    -Bristol
    -Darlington
    -Michigan
    -Homestead (Coincidentally, this would make all of the major sectors of the USA, New York, California, Illinois, Florida, Texas, and Virginia [Richmond is the bottom of the North Eastern Megapolis] have a chase race, but back to the point)

    Jimmie would most likely not even have one chase championship,, as the track selection would not be in his favor.

    That's why playoffs in other sports are not comparable to NASCAR's, it's not as simple as "you go to where you are best, and I'll do the same" like it is in those sports.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2010
  9. Michael James

    Michael James MJ

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    In 2006, the St Louis Cardinals went 83-78, that is only a 516 win percentage. The New York Yankee's wen 99-65 with a 599 win percentage, clear domination compared to the Cardinals, but yet the Cardinals won the World Series with an absurdly low number of season wins.
    The Reason they won? It's called the playoffs (or the chase for the NASCAR fans).
    The Governing body of any sports weather it be the NFL, NBA, MLB, NHL, or NASCAR sets the rules at the beginning of the season for the playoffs so that it adds excitement and gets more people to watch. Plus it makes it a challenge to the teams/ drivers.
    Weather you like it or not that is the way it is. Johnson is dominating because he is preparing for the chase more than the season, and thats the way it should be.
    I give him applause for 4 strait, and probably 5. He deserves it weather we like it or not.
     
  10. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    Lot of homophones here.

    You can't compare baseball to NASCAR. In baseball, the teams don't play a 31-way game. They goes against different teams 5 days a week and that widdles it out. In NASCAR, this isn't necessary. Baseball, or any sport like it, needs the playoffs so the best play the best. In NASCAR, this happens every week.

    I'm sorry, I just can't view a Chase win the same way I view a championship. I've been watching NASCAR since 1997 and it worked fine. (Though I admit, as a Gordon fan, I do have bias, as PepsiRacer4 has with Jimmie). In my opinion, the driver who scores the most points over 36 races beat the best of the best for that amount of time. Week in, week out.

    In my opinion, with this system, 2nd position is equal to 10th for the first 26 races. And then the "real" fight begins in the last ten races with drivers who didn't earn the spots they began race 27 with 60% of the time.

    If people want excitement, tighten the system with some other method that rewards consistency instead of victory lane trips.
     
  11. David24

    David24 Paint Crew Paint Crew

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    Why would you reward consistency?

    Let's reward Jeff and Kevin for all of their top fives. Let's put them ahead of Johnson and Hamlin in the standings.

    Gordon- 0 wins
    Harvick- 3 wins
    Hamlin/Johnson- 6 wins each

    That's not right.

    In the end and after all is said and done, 2nd place doesn't mean squat.
     
  12. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    Consistency should be rewarded because the most consistent driver will earn the most points out of anybody, while you can have three wins like McMurray and somehow be superior to Gordon's performance this season. Johnson and Hamlin had such bad summer stretches neither really deserve to be recognized as having the best season.
     
  13. MattyO

    MattyO Well-Known Member Admin

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    The chase does just that.

    The team that consistently runs top 5's or at the least top 10's during the chase will more than likely be crowned the champion. Just as if there was no chase.

    I like the system the way it is honestly. It rewards teams for trying to win races and let's everyone start over who earned a spot for the last 12 races to have a chance at a championship. You have to run well enough to even qualify.

    That sounds just like all the other sports. You have to win and play well enough to qualify for the playoffs to have a chance at a championship. I see no difference at all distinguishing NASCAR's chase and professional sports playoff's. It's all the same concept. Get hot at the end of the year, and you got a great shot at a championship. The Duke Blue Devils in college basketball is a great example of this. They weren't the best team all year long, but they were the best and playing their best when it counted. That's what every college b'ball teams goals are.

    The 48 team epitomizes this.
     
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  14. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    Eh, the way the old system was, I liked it. You had to be your best just about every race of the year instead of the last ten, because it's possible with NASCAR. But to each his own.
     
  15. David24

    David24 Paint Crew Paint Crew

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    I disagree. Like Matt said you have to qualify for the Chase. You have to do good to get in the Chase. Just like you said. J. McMurray has 3 wins. Jeff Gordon has zero wins but multiple top fives and top tens. Now out of the two who made the Chase? They guy with zero wins. Why? Consistency. Now Johnson and Hamlin are in the Chase because they have the most wins out of anyone else. And 1st place earns the most points.
     
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  16. MattyO

    MattyO Well-Known Member Admin

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    By the way, I am not a big fan of the 48 team. I do however respect the heck out of what they have done over the years. We are witnessing history in the making of one of the greatest championship streaks in all of sports.

    I am amazed with all the parity of the top teams in NASCAR that the 48 team can still dominate all of them for the final 12 races. It really is something to behold to see what this team is capable of doing to the rest of the field.
     
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  17. Michael James

    Michael James MJ

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    I was not comparing it to that fact, I was saying that the chase/ the playoffs reshuffle everything. The best teams (like the Yankees in '06 or Gordon in '07) don't necessarily win it all.
     
  18. Corey Carpenter

    Corey Carpenter Well-Known Member Banned

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    I don't know why everyone is freaking out because Johnson has the point lead once again in the chase halfway through. It's not that big of a deal to me if Johnson wins 5 in a row. I bet most everyone here after Johnson has retired people will honor the fact that he scored 5(maybe) in a row instead of saying that he doens't deserve the championship and all that crap.
    Face it... the chase is the chase.... I don't see it being removed.... instead of complaining and saying that Harvick should be in the lead watch the races and enjoy what you're seeing.
    Just my .02
     
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  19. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan My name is no longer Jeff Jordan

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    1st place only earns the most points because of a severe reshuffling.

    You have to be good to get in the chase. But you have to be better to be first under the old system than 1st after race 1 in the chase in the new system. 6 wins and Ninth in points shouldn't make you the points leader when you certainly hadn't earned it, in the case of Hamlin. Only in Harvick's case was it harder, because he lost 260 points in a race where he finished in the top twenty. Even if he finished last he'd still have the point lead.

    Also, in no particular order, this is my chase, about every track must be run differently. In no particular order:

    Chicagoland
    Talladega
    Infineon
    Charlotte
    Watkins Glen
    Dover
    Phoenix
    Homestead
    Martinsville
    Pocono

    In retrospect, I'd rather Jimmie had not crashed at Texas and had the championship clinched after Phoenix, just to show NASCAR how uneven the chase is.
     
  20. Maycedez

    Maycedez Well-Known Member

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    I will agree with this 100%. As much as it would be nice to see someone besides Johnson win, its not that big of a deal that he's leading the championship chase when there are five races left in the season. Let it be and we'll see what happens at the end of the year. I'm getting tired of hearing Jimmie Johnson this and Jimmie Johnson that and things like "Oh, Jimmie's got this won because he's leading the championship by 41 points". I'm not saying I dislike Jimmie Johnson, but I dislike everyone hyping him up just because he's leading the points.
     
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