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To say 2020 is gonna be a year of change for NASCAR would be an understatment.

Discussion in 'NASCAR Discussion' started by USSTalladega, May 19, 2018.

  1. starscream24

    starscream24 Captain of Unpopular Opinions.

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    I was gonna bring up why I like the current play off format and how it has improved the drivers drive to win. But Matt said everything and more that I wanted to bring up.
     
    labontefanboy likes this.
  2. dalejr88rox

    dalejr88rox Video editor, Meme Police, and certified B.A.M.F.

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    Here's the thing that everybody overlooks. We all say "oh well nobody will watch NASCAR if the title is locked up already."

    Then how does literally every other motorsport in the world survive? Indycar has survived this long. F1 has had numerous titles locked up early and it's been around for 50 years, and is still huge. Saying NASCAR doesn't need gimmicks to survive this era simply isn't true, as the survival of every other motorsport proves that wrong
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2018
    Ryan81398, Spike, watsonz and 4 others like this.
  3. MattSRD28

    MattSRD28 SRD Pick'em Series Commissioner Moderator

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    Literally all you have to do is look at a timeline and realize the decline basically started with the 2008 market crash. Most every pro sport has been affected in this way. Everybody is looking for ways to bring in viewers. That's what this points format is at least designed to do. Whether or not it succeeds is another story. You say you don't need a gimmicky championship format to do that. Ok, but you're still not saying what will draw in viewers instead. Simply going back to the old system with its odd way of rewarding mediocrity, and the most anti-climactic end of a season of anything on TV, is never going to happen.

    It's a moot point though, really, because nobody is going to tune into a Nascar race because of a points format, no matter what it is. There needs to be identity, rivalry, spectacle, and accessibility across all digital platforms. Nascar is so sadly inept at all of these things. While we're arguing about so-called gimmicks, we're missing the real point that Nascar these days reaches exactly nobody who isn't looking for it. That's the biggest problem of all. I have an MLB and NBA app on my phone. NFL apps came with my phone's default software. I couldn't delete it if I wanted to. Where is my Nascar app? Oh right, it doesn't exist. I get NBA alerts daily on my smart watch. Nascar news has to come through my Facebook feed, and that only happens on race days. If you want more people to watch races and attend races, you have to go where they are, and do it in a way that doesn't make you look stupid. The responsibility for that lies squarely on the Frances who are doing exactly nothing about it.

    To survive is not to grow and flourish. IndyCar has certainly seen its share of changes in recent years, but IndyCar has always had a niche audience, and it is not trying to be one of the world's biggest sports. F1's audience has seen a similar decline to Nascar's, and again, the decline has been global since the market crash. The decline isn't a demonstration of a points format's failure so much as it is a demonstration that existing points formats are not drawing in fans.

    When was the last time anyone watched an F1 race because of the fair and level playing field, or for who wins the championship? I can't ever think of a time when that was the case. F1's lure was always being the epitome of man & machine, the apex of technological advancement. Obscene amounts of money flow through F1, and since F1 travels all around the world, there's an element of national pride amongst different world population centers. Those are angles that help F1 that Nascar has never had and probably never will have.

    No other motorsport in the world aside from F1 was ever as big as Nascar once was. That's the difference. No other form of racing had as far to fall. IndyCar nearly destroyed itself in its stupid civil war, and since then has simply been trying to survive. Nascar exists on a whole different level, and has conducted itself accordingly.

    Nascar wanted to create its own playoffs and World Series basically, and try to be on that level. No other motorsport tried that because no other motorsport was remotely capable of it, except for F1, but I don't think F1 has ever really cared who its champion was. Who wins amongst McLaren, Ferrari, Sauber, Red Bull etc has seemed to be their main concern, and no playoff format would ever make a dent in the beyond imagining amounts of money that already flow through F1. F1 has nothing to gain by adopting a playoff format, but Nascar could have gained a great deal if their playoffs reached the level of the Super Bowl, NBA Finals, World Series etc. To do that, Nascar needed to build the grandeur of those playoff formats and market itself just as heavily, and it has failed miserably in that regard. Nascar did not and has not kept up at all with the changing face of American culture and social media over the past 15 years. The sad part is I don't see Nascar even acknowledging this or has any clue as to how to improve on it if they did.
     
  4. JeffJordan

    JeffJordan Yes, my name is actually Jeff Jordan

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    There is a NASCAR app (at least on iOS)
     
  5. jacobc62

    jacobc62 The OG NASCAR Tiger.

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    There is also a NASCAR app on Google Play.
     
  6. dalejr88rox

    dalejr88rox Video editor, Meme Police, and certified B.A.M.F.

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    @MattSRD28 you definitely hit the nail on the head there. A championship format won't save NASCAR, only a good on track package, which we haven't had for years, will save it
     
    Ceafus 88 likes this.
  7. nj9703

    nj9703 Very Stable Genius

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    While the championship format is not 100% the issue, I just want to say this sentence right here is bullshit. In our current format you can finish 30th in every race, get lucky one time at Talladega, and be in a position to fight for the title. The old system rewarded consistency, being the best of the best every week, week by week. This system rewards being the best 1 time out of 26.
    You’ve got some good points, as does the other Matt, but that phrase right there just made no sense to me considering what we have now.
     
  8. crazyboy335

    crazyboy335 Do I Wanna Know?

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    Drop stage cautions, add more downforce, drop the spacer, and make the cars symmetrical. Add a handful of road courses and drop all 1.5 milers to a race each. If that means shortening the schedule, so be it. You aren't competing against the NFL anyway.

    It also doesn't help that 15 years ago you had a super diverse roster, personality-wise.
    Young hotshot punk? Newman, Harvick, Johnson, Kurt Busch.
    Quiet, mellow veteran? The Burtons, the Labontes, Dale Jarrett.
    Grateful underdog, always a smile on their face? Craven, Nemechek, Benson, etc.

    The fucking bowl of oatmeal I had for breakfast this morning has more charisma than Chase, Byron, Erik Jones, Larson, and Daniel Suarez combined. They're all from the same exact vanilla PR mill. Get the drivers to have a little personality and maybe people will be interested again.
     
    USSTalladega, Spike, MrDude68 and 3 others like this.
  9. jacobc62

    jacobc62 The OG NASCAR Tiger.

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    I blame that more on the sponsors than anything else, adding to the list of things I feel sponsors are at the very least partially responsible for....
     
    USSTalladega and mtblillie like this.
  10. labontefanboy

    labontefanboy Well-Known Member

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    I definitely understand people's gripes with stages but honestly I think they're a net positive. NASCAR is not an endurance sport anymore, looking through race results this season and over 13 races, most top teams don't have any mechanical failures, and if they do, it's at most 1 on the season. In terms of engine failures, Kyle Busch had a drivetrain fail at Dover and Blaney had the issue on Sunday night. No other driver with an engine failure this season is going to even sniff the playoffs unless Allmendinger pulls off a road course win.

    The frustration about stopping the action is definitely real. I forgot that they had 4 stages Sunday night and was kind of annoyed, and every week, I feel like once stage 3 starts, it's the "real race". But it breaks up the action into smaller chunks, and Matt did a good job talking about how that's beneficial in today's era of media consumption.

    I also don't see any evidence that stages have ruined fuel mileage or pit strategy races (with one caveat that I'll address momentarily). They certainly add a different timing element but those races were always dependent on when the cautions fall. We absolutely can still see fuel mileage racing with stages, look at the "crown jewels" from 2017 alone - guys were dropping like flies at the end of the Daytona 500, Austin Dillon won Charlotte on a fuel gamble, and Trevor Bayne damn near stole Indy had that race stayed green.

    The one caveat is that I feel like stages should not be used at plate races and at road courses. It creates needless carnage and is honestly a safety issue at Daytona and Talladega, and road course races are the exception to fuel mileage races. Stages completely change the flow of how those events have been run in the past. Also, stop counting laps in between stages aside from the 2 lap window that the pits are open, it's completely unnecessary. Just keep the pits closed so no team can sit on pit road making adjustments or repairing damage without losing "official" laps.
     
    starscream24 likes this.
  11. MattSRD28

    MattSRD28 SRD Pick'em Series Commissioner Moderator

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    You mean being among the best of the best every week. Again, the old system produced Matt Kenseth as champion from a grand total of 1 win and 11 top 5's all season, having lead the standings for 33 straight weeks beginning in March and clinching the championship before the last race of the season. Jimmie Johnson's 3 wins and 14 top 5's, and Ryan Newman's 8 wins and 17 top 5's ultimately didn't matter because Johnson/Newman also had more DNFs. Maybe it's just me, but those facts don't exactly indicate that Kenseth and his team were better than the others. He didn't even have as many top 5 finishes, and you're saying it was his consistency? Yeah, consistent mediocrity, as I stated. Kenseth just didn't have nearly as much bad luck as the other two.

    To use those same guys as demonstration, what the playoff system has changed is that Kenseth, Johnson and Newman would have started the playoffs at basically the same position, though Kenseth would have been slightly behind the other guys due to having less playoff points. After that, Kenseth's consistency would not matter nearly as much as Johnson/Newman's ability to win. Wins become the prime target in the playoffs, and during the season. To me, that makes for better racing and a better product, but again, that's me. I'm totally ok with early season wrecks, blown engines, blown tires, etc not having hardly any impact on determining the series champion.
     
    starscream24 likes this.
  12. nj9703

    nj9703 Very Stable Genius

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    I guess that’s just where we differ. Wrecks and failures are a part of racing, and should be treated as such. To me, if you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
     
    thefaeway and USSTalladega like this.
  13. mtblillie

    mtblillie Well-Known Member

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    I gotta go with Matt on that one too. In the old system, you could win a championship by playing it safe, using your good equipment and talent to stay at the front and not go for wins every race. Too often I'd hear about how a driver was just going to hang out in a top ten position because "he was thinking about winning the championship, not winning the race." I get why people like this form of the championship, but to me it's a little more exciting when drivers who are risk takers have a shot at winning the championship.
     
    starscream24 and BrendonH12 like this.
  14. MrDude68

    MrDude68 Occasional Backwards Driver

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    Just a few years ago, Kyle Busch won the championship after missing almost a full third of the season. That year, he had 5 wins, 12 top 5's, and 16 top 10's. Granted, his winning percentage was impressive (20%), but still his top 5's only accounted for 48% of his races, and his top 10's accounted for 64% of his races. That same season, Joey Logano won 6/36 races (16.7%), finished top 5 22/36 times (61.1%) and finished top 10 28/36 times (77.8%), but finished sixth in the standings, despite not having a single DNF. So really your argument about the old system "rewarding mediocrity" doesn't work, because given those stats, you cannot possibly tell me that Kyle Busch was a more deserving champion in 2015 than Joey Logano. This new system is the one where you can theoretically win Daytona and then crash out 25 times, but still be in contention to win the championship. That's even worse. That rewards less than mediocrity.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2018
  15. jacobc62

    jacobc62 The OG NASCAR Tiger.

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    Can we all just agree that both systems have their own respective benefits and flaws, and go back to using the 2004-2006 Chase format?
     
  16. AMLNet49

    AMLNet49 Well-Known Member

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    Kenseth won the title basically because he was in better equipment (so less failures) and he also didn’t crash. So they were able to win the title in an off year for their standards, because Jimmie and Newman were good but inconsistent. And some of it is just luck, Mark Martin’s engine failure may have cost him a shot at the 2002 title, Kenseth in the same equipment had no real issues a year later. But don’t forget Kenseth also lost the title in a year when he had 7 wins. So in the end everything everything kind of paid itself off
     
  17. MillsLayne

    MillsLayne #18N18

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    Well, you have Harvick and Busch at the top right now and they are nothing but personality, whether you like them or not. Throw Clint Bowyer in there, too. I do agree, though, that the newer drivers coming up are dry as hell.
     
  18. Lap_Down

    Lap_Down Well-Known Member

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    IMO the most important thing is still to finish the race. I remember... forget what race... charlotte I think it was... actually might have been the first year of the CoT, so in the Chase era... anyway the 24 car wrecked early. I was bummed, the back end of the car was ruined. But they worked on the car and somehow finished 4th! I think Jimmie won the race, but I remember being so crazy happy with that 4th place I didn't even care who won because of how much points the 24 team saved by fighting back to get to 4th. You don't really experience that anymore nowadays IMO since points don't matter as much.

    Also in the old system... its technically true you could points race to a title, but wins in Nascar are so hard to come by... IMO winning itself was enough of an incentive for a driver to not play it safe all the time. That was the cool thing about Nascar... how special a race win was. The only time I ever saw real points racing was at Homestead when the points leader would just ride around... that's pretty much it though. You could wreck at any time in any race, so IMO there was really no point to points racing until you got to Homestead anyway. I think pretty much every driver would go for the win if he had the car to do it... I mean if he had a 5th place car then yah... the driver would settle for a top 5, but IMO no way would a driver settle for anything but a win if he had car that could do it on that particular day. I think they asked Newman once if he would have rather have the title in 2003 or his 8 wins that year... he said his 8 wins.
     
  19. Bradfan4ever

    Bradfan4ever Keselowski2Wallace

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    if we even have a 2020 Season with Rob Kaufmann's mouth and Brian France's stupidity.
     
  20. MonkeyWrenCh

    MonkeyWrenCh Well-Known Member

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    Is that why F1 is so popular? F1 is currently my favorite racing series but I could never figure out why F1 was so popular compared to any other racing series.

    Is that really true? That is interesting I didn't know that.
     

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